Dieter Untergasser

Dieter Untergasser


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Jack Wattley
Shaifullah Yeng
Horst Koehler
Dieter Untergasser
Bernd Degen
Norbert Zajac

 

Dieter-Untergasser good morning, are there questions for me?
Walter Dieter Welcome in our Chatroom
fredg Are your annual updates available in English?
Dieter-Untergasser no, not yet 
Dougall What would you consider to be the 3 biggest killers of domestic discus fish?
Dieter-Untergasser Dieter-Untergasser gill worms, intestinal worms and bacterial infections 
Dougall brilliant thanks and my other question/s is Do you think that newly purchased discus (wild and domestic) should be prophylactically treated for ecto- and endo-parasites during their quarantine period? If yes what would be your treatments of choice be? 
Dieter-Untergasser every treatment weakens the fish and so I prefer current quarentine time of 3 months to find out if there are any problems and then I would prefer to treat the disease that is arising in this current time. You can put in some fish from your own hatchery so you can find out if the quarentine fish carry parasites or diseases they do not show but can be dangerous for the fish 
Dougall  Yes I agree I think that is an essentaial part of the qt period. 
Dieter-Untergasser so in this time your own fish will show the disease carried from the new fish (maybe new fish have resitance to the disease and so do not show it) and so you can see it once your fish become infected
Stephen do you think a quarantine of 3 months is enough, or do you propose some more biological treatments as heat treatment during that time?
Dieter-Untergasser no, I wouldn't do anything until/unless the fish show disease. It is possible to give heat treatment with 33-34C 
Dougall  Many recommend 'heat' as a treatment for all manner of maladies. At what point (in your opinion) does environmental heat become detrimental to a reasonably healthy discus; and is this level lowered for a weakened and diseased fish e.g. one that has been suffering from S. vortens infection for several weeks and in the process of 'cannibalising' its own tissues.
Dieter-Untergasser over 3-5 days then after this time slowly lower the temp to 28C over 24-48 hours... it doesn't help all maladies... 
Dougall  Yes agreed, am thinking of how it is commonly advised for S. vortens symps. and related symps.
Dieter-Untergasser it is only to increase the activity of the immune system and so the immune system can fight better against diseases and it is most effective against bacterial and flagellate diseases
Dougall  Yes agreed - that is what I am looking for - at what point is the benefit of a more effective immune system start to become outweighed by the cost of heat stress? 
Dougall  have heard of people taking their water to 38oC and above and this has always caused me concern
Dieter-Untergasser I have heard sometimes that people treat with temp of 38C but I am not a friend of this because it stresses the fish too much and depresses the immune system
Stephen so whats the highest temperature you would set your fish on ?
Dieter-Untergasser temp to 33C is not as stressful to the fish and increases the immune system but if you go higher with the temp the stress is too high and the temp is too stressful for the fish so I prefer the treatment with temp of 33C, max is possible with 34C but then not over 5 days, only over 3 days and I think it is better to make temp treatment over longer time (5 days) than short treatment in higher temperature
Dougall  I agree Dieter Ok thank you very much for your excellent information Dieter - I better not hog your time there are others with much more interesting questions - enjoy your day 
Ron_Futrell  If you confirm Discus have recovered from Plaque, should you quarantine your Discus from others & for how long? 
Dieter-Untergasser yes, with black or discus dieases I have experience as I was one of first who discovered it...I prefer after treatment to hold fish in quarentine for 3 weeks after treatment completed and that during this time the fish should have good nutrition with additional vitamins because they must rebuild their mucus membrane. So it needs the time to recover but with normal temp of28C and I am not a friend to keeping the temp higher so I prefer to keep and breed the fish in a temp of 28C or lower (27C). It helps the fish to recover after the treatment if you give in this 3 weeks a treatment with nifurpirinol.
Ron_Futrell  Also, what area of the fish should be scoped to confirm diagnosis of these organism's? Do you think secondary infections can be as harmful as the discus plague?
Dieter-Untergasser [Ron] yes of course because normally we have alot of external parasites (unicellers) in the aquarium which normally do not penetrate the fish but then fish are weakened by the plague or other disease and it's immune system doesn't work well and so these unicellers can mulitply and penetrate the fish causing additional infections 
Dougall  Sorry but have to ask - OK - assuming there is a 'discus plague' what is the causative organism/agent and is it the same in all cases of 'black discus'. If the organism hasn't been identified, what is it 'most likely' to be? E.g. virus, bacteria etc. and particular genus if bacteria?
Dieter-Untergasser plague or discus disease is a bacterial infection of the skin and the species is still not systematically confirmed and so the University of Duselldorf is currently working on this and maybe within next few months we will have results
Dougall  assume by the nifurpirinol you believe it is bacterial based or is this for secondary infections and what dose of nifurpirinol do you prefer?
Dieter-Untergasser but the disease itself is possible to diagnose by appearance. So when you take the treatment which I wrote in my book Discus Health with neomycin sulphate and nitrofurantoin in a treatment over 5 days normally the bacteria of the disease are treated and the fish are healthy again 
Dougall Speaking of books - your first earlier one - the handbook of fish diseases - this I think is your best work - will this be updated or perhaps a CD diagnostic version be available?
Dieter-Untergasser Dougall yes I am working on this but do not know when it will be finished
Stephen other question on temperature Dieter: I bought an used tank which I want to use for discus soon. As I am not sure on what had been in there in the past I want to disinfect the tank to be sure not to get anything on my discus. So which temperature should I use to disinfect the tank and should I do anything else to ensure that procedure. (the technical stuff I want to use is completely new)
Dieter-Untergasser I have this problem that after treating infected fish I have to disinfect the tank real fast in order to put in new fish for treatment or just keeping/discovering another new disease so it is necessary to be sure that no parasite or disease is transferred from the old fish to the new fish. I start in the evening at 6:00 and fill tank totally with water then I put in strong heater and increase the temperature to 60C and this needs time of about 1-3 hours (depending on size of aquarium).
so when the temperature reaches the temperature of 60C I take care that the temp is held for 2 hours then I stop the heater and overnight let the tank cool down. The next day I clean all, wash out filter and start the tank with new water but then it is necessary to activate the filters because all bacteria are dead from the heat.
I have in other aquariums additional sponge filters which I can transfer into disinfected aquariums and so it is possible to start the tank again with the active filter(s) the temp disinfection kills not only all parasites and bacteria it is an absolute sure treatment against all eggs of parasites which are normally not treatable with any medication 
Dougall How do you maintain a temp of 60C for two hours - do you just add more hot water (I assum this is not done with standard store bought heater/stats)
Dieter-Untergasser Dougall you must have a strong heater (hot water does not works) - the heater I use is similar to coil type that water is heated inside coffee makers. If you use hot water it's possible that the glass of the tank will break
Dieter-Untergasser the temp disinfection kills not only all parasites and bacteria it is an absolute sure treatment against all eggs of parasites which are normally not treatable with any medication
Dieter-Untergasser be careful not to get the referenced heater inside the tank so it should be fixed so only the heating coil is setting inside the water
Dougall  is there a reason you prefer heat over chlorine bleach? 
Dieter-Untergasser [Dougall] I prefer heat because it is much easier than chlorine bleach but disinfection with the chlorine bleach is also possible but you should be sure after disinfection that all of the disinfectants are removed and the tank is absolutely clean. 
Dougall I was just concerned that some bacteria and cysts survie high temps albeit they would not commonly be found
Dieter-Untergasser yes, it is possible that some bacteria or cysts will survive this temp treatment of 60C but all bacteria which cause diseases will not survive 
Dougall I was thinking of water treatment and Legionellae bacteria which I was taught survive to 75oC which is why I said not expected in tanks ;-) 
Dieter-Untergasser dougall that is true but this bacteria will not multiply in the aquarium system and so they will not be a problem for discus for other fish - I think there is no danger for people 
Dougall  I agree - just hope there are not similar or heat resistant ones around - Thank you Dieter your chat has been wonderfully enlightening and interesting - have a great week end 
Ron_Futrell  Using 35c temp to stimulate immune system, is it possible to control or kill intestinal flagellites with these high temps?
Dieter-Untergasser [Ron] higher temperatures set down the quantity of flagallates in the intestinal tract so it is possible to make this temp treatment not with 35 but with 33 or 34C together with treatment of metronidazole or nifurpirinol. This treatment you should do over 5 days then change a lot of water and take out the rest of the medication with a good active carbon. 
Stephen  concering desinfection: whats the procedure you recommend to use on ph-meter electrode in special
Dieter-Untergasser Stephen a lot of chemical disinfectants poison the electrode and so it doesn't work well after that, so it is not possible to disinfect the electrode with chemicals and heat treatment. 
Dieter-Untergasser I dry the electrode with tissue or soft paper and hold it in the air over few hours until it totally dry and then it must be calibrated again but it is better to be careful and not to use the pH electrode in other aquariums or water systems because it is easy and possible to transfer bacterial infections and parasites from tank to tank 
Dieter-Untergasser I prefer a way which is much more sure - I take the water with a glass out of the tank and measure in this glass and then after, it is much more easy to disinfect inside the glass before I use it in another tank. I have several of these glasses to take water from different tanks so never the electrode of the instrument has direct contact with an aquarium.
Dieter-Untergasser we have time for maybe one or two more questions
jmdiscus One question Mr.Untergasser: I have a pair : green discus and turq. Their fry are red turq. How can i obtain green discus with this discus? father and daughter, mother and son, brothers?? 
Dieter-Untergasser jmdiscus - I would prefer not to mix different breeding lines as it is better to work in one breeding color (line) and so you have fries which are the same colors as the parents 
fredg [Dieter_Untergasser] in the USA confirmed Aeromonas infections, multi antibiotic resistant are in our discus populations, what treatment do you advise?
Dieter-Untergasser that's a big problem fred
Dieter-Untergasser in future it will be a much bigger problem because a lot of bacterial diseases build resistance against antibiotics so the best way...is to isolate the bacteria to make an antibiogram to find out against which antibiotics they have built a resistance then it is possible to use an antibiotic which will work
fredg agreed, hobbyists are blindly using what was advised to one breeder, ampicillin.. 
Dieter-Untergasser yes, fred it is a very good working antibioticum
fredg yes, for now. Would you recommend for hobbyists to try the older non antibiotic treatments first? 
fredg assuming they do not send a specimen to a university lab 
Dieter-Untergasser but first it is necessary to prove/scope for the species of bacteria you need to treat for and then it is possible to choose the medication. It is the best way to have effective treatment when antibiogram is done before, then you can be sure the chosen medication is working 
fredg yes Dieter, I fully agree, but refering to dealing with the average, "I must use medictions now" type of actions.
Dougall would it be feasible to use a broad spectrum generic treatment for gram pos and one for gram neg post staining? and not worry too much about specific species?
Dieter-Untergasser it is better to use available medications in pet stores because the most diseases can be treated with this (if unable to confirm through university labs) 
Dieter-Untergasser it is dangerous to use antibiotics without first confirming with university and without controlling the affect by microbiological methods because resistance of bacterias are caused when the treatment is not done well, the information of this resistance can be transferred to bacteria which live in humans and can cause resistance against these medications when humans must use it against disease. So aquarists should be very careful when they use antibiotics from human medicine in the aquarium system
fredg Yes it is Dieter, but the pet industry in the USA, all antibiotics are legally available without perscription, so they all get used. And which is why I advise the no antibiotic first treatments.
Dieter-Untergasser yes, I know this problem fred and it is a big danger
fredg Very large here in the USA
Dieter-Untergasser actually everywhere fred, here in Europe it is not legal to use such antibiotics without a prescription from vet 
Dougall no they just put the abs into store drugs as 'trade secret' and sell over counter :-( 
fredg agreed, just a lot of other nations control the human antibiotics differently in terms of the pet hobby, here all the human antibiotics are legally and easily found for the pet trade without perscriptions
Dieter-Untergasser must go all, I have another appointment
Stephen ty for the Chat Dieter 
Dieter-Untergasser  thank you for your questions 
fredg Thank you for your time, hope we can talk before two more years Dieter.
Walter Dieter thank you for joining our Chatroom
Dougall  thank you very much
Dougall  yes agreed Fred
jmdiscus  thank you Dieter!!!


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